This question came out as a little teaser for Matt, the English speaking “Longhorn” blogger in Japan. He’s written some good stuff on his new blog “Eternity Considered“. I notice, also, that he has a rapport with Miss Beep! Beep! It’s Me, the atheist evangelist in Australia.
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I will ask a brief question that puzzles me about “eternity”.When does eternity begin?Does it start with me?Did eternity start with my grandparents?Did it start with the first day of creation?The problem I have with the concept of eternity, is that there was a time, when I was not, so, in that time that preceded me, eternity did not exist for me.But, when I became, it was at this moment that eternity started for me.And, presumably, it is also at this point in time, that the infinity of eternity begins, for D.S. Martin.Yet…, eternity literally means infinity, i.e. eternity is without beginning and without end.It is a paradox for a finite being such as I am, to even contemplate eternity.What can I do with that portion of eternity, which extends into a region where I do not exist?And then, as a disciple of Jesus, for me to say in my heart that I shall one day take-part in that portion of eternity that extends into a region where I do not exist.I will live eternally? Yes! But, how?(I am still pondering this and will likely add to it soon.)
God bless,DSM
p.s. Does Jeremiah 1:4-5 help to figure out this puzzle?
* The Lord gave me a message. He said, “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world.”
THE ANSWER
As a reader of Jeremiah, I see that to Yahweh, existence is not the being in the physical realm, but rather in the Spirit of thought.
That is to say that God has eternally maintained us in His very being, as thought.
We did not, therefore, simply become on the day we were born on to the Earth, but instead, we have always been, in mind and in the thoughts of our Creator, i.e. we exist and have our being in God, in a more real sense than in the carnal realm of the universe.
Compare this to Acts 17:27-28
- * “His purpose in all of this was that the nations should seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him—though he is not far from any one of us. For in him we live and move and exist. As one of your own poets says, ‘We are his offspring.’
Thought of God is real, and it is expressed by the Word. This is how we are eternal and infinite.
God bless,
DSM
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DS,
Hey, I’m not sure when you commented on Eternity Considered, I usually just check for comments on the latest entry. But yeah, I just noticed them and responded.
Anyway, I have a question. Presumably, God is all that existed before creation, but does that mean that He is transcendant even to eternity? In other words, is eternity itself a creation? It would seem that eternity only has meaning when it is defined in relation to the temporal. But, I guess the distinction to draw is this: is eternity the continuation of time forever or timelessness?
And, on a tangent, if it is said that eternity is an inherent, uncreated quality of God then eternity is actually the innate nature of being.
This may shed light on Christ in that God within His own uncreated nature is eternal life.
To live eternally is the original nature of being and the free gift that God (the great ”I Am”) so desires to give through His Son, which is literally that uncreated eternal life.
Matt,
You have defined some terms and characteristics for God, which I certainly believe and would concur explicitly.
1. Eternity is timelessness!
2. God’s nature is Love.
3. God’s nature is Timeless.
4. Yes, there will be no need for contemplating “eternity”, from the eternal position of the post-physical kingdom of heaven.
5. Yes, there will be no need contemplating “love”, from within Him, whom defines love.
6. Yes, the Original is eternal, and was given to the physical as grace with the option of rejecting the eternal and the love.
Furthermore, any who reject the eternal character and the love character (those intrinsic characteristics of God) will be banished from the mind/thoughts of Him, by their very choice of self-will and freewill.
DS,
Thanks for the response.
I would like to hear more about your perspective on the coming kingdom of God because I think we might have slightly different views.
For instance, you state that the their will be a ”post-physical” kingdom of God. I would amend that to a ”post-carnal” kingdom of God. I suppose that the kingdom of God will be an actual place where the physical and the spiritual will be utterly reconciled and Christ will literally walk among His people, all of whom will have physical, glorified bodies.
Also, ”timelessness” is a tricky word, because I view time as the potential for and measurement of change. In other words, when an event as come and gone then time can be said to have passed. If nothing in the universe changed (if everything stood still) then the illusion of passing time would be gone and then there would be timelessness. If things were in some kind of eternal flux then eternity would then be time forever.
So, I see that creation with the capacity for fluidity is contingent on the passing of time. Their is only timelessness for the unchanging God, but for creation to exist eternally their must be time without end in a universe (or kingdom) where change and mobility are possible.
Although I think there are systemic flaws in our world because of the Fall I believe that certain fundamentals about the physical universe can be applied to God’s coming kingdom. Wasn’t the Earth originally supposed to be paradise?
Matt,
My understanding of the kingdom of heaven is not, strictly, future tense. When you look at these passages, you must understand, that Christ saw the Kingdom “close” at hand, when He was preparing to ascend to the cross.
Matthew 16:28
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Luke 11:20-22
20 But if I am casting out demons by the power of God, then the Kingdom of God has arrived among you. 21 For when Satan,* who is completely armed, guards his palace, it is safe—22 until someone who is stronger attacks and overpowers him, strips him of his weapons, and carries off his belongings.
Luke 16:16
16 “Until John the Baptist began to preach, the laws of Moses and the messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and eager multitudes are forcing their way in.
Luke 17:20
20And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
So, my point of the “post-physical kingdom” should be more properly understood as the ultimate culmination of the Kingdom of God.
I fully believe Jesus’ words in Matthew 16:28 that we are “now” citizens of an extant Kingdom.
But, I believe that the kingdom is advancing steadily toward the final day when Jesus calls His Holy Spirit to Himself with all the spirits of humans who trust Jesus. However, the kingdom will not be fully realized until that day.
Perhaps the term “post-physical” should or could be better stated as “super-physical” or “super-natural”. This distinction is important because many in the Christian sphere tend to speak in terms of an “acutely-physical” kingdom rather than a “super-natural” kingdom. This is the point that I want to avoid. I reject the idea of the carnal kingdom, which you have correctly noted as being below what Jesus claimed for His dominion.
I also appreciate how you describe the “reconciliation of physical and spiritual”. I see this as true and look to scriptures such as 2 Peter 3:13 and Revelation 21:1-6, where there is described a “New heaven and new earth.”
To the timelessness point, I am not sure that we can say that change or flux is ultimately real. I tend to think its appearance is illusive to our physical form and consciousness. And along this line, I also wonder if we are created, but nevertheless pre-existing spirits from before time.
I know that this is only idle speculation, but I consider the possibility that we have been given the free-will or choice of existence in a physical universe with the hope of standing against the adversary and a resultant union with the Creator.
So, there you go. You have some solid scriptural hermeneutic with some wild fantasy conjuring. What more could you want?
God bless,
DSM
DS,
Well it looks like our views don’t differ after all.
The Great Divorce by CS Lewis has an interesting picture of the kingdom through the perspective of someone who’s damned.
The person is taken up to heaven from hell and given a choice to be a part of the kingdom. And, when he gets there he sees that it is more real than anything he has ever seen. He, by comparison to the profound reality, notices that his body is like a dim shadow. He, in his completely carnal form, is an insubstantial ghost cannot even bend a blade of grass.
Matt,
The book The Great Divorce is probably the seminal basis for my current understanding of Heaven and Hell.
I have a deep respect for Lewis and his works.
I took a course in College on the literature and apologetics of Lewis.
I continue to pull the books out ever-so-often, just to spur my thinking again.
I am currently listening to Lewis’ audio recording of “The Four Loves.”
God bless,
DSM
DS,
I haven’t read The Four Loves, but then again I haven’t read The Great Divorce either, just reviews and analysis. I should read more Lewis but they’re hard to come by this side of the Pacific.